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Default 2nd March 2009

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Of course.. And this tells a lot about Arabs and the true identity of the Israeli State!
Maco Awamer. Thats the saying. It reads: There are no orders.
When the Iraki armie was on the door steps of tel aviv, ready to recapture the last bastion of zionist contamination, but the order to go in never came.
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Default 2nd March 2009

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Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian View Post
Can you please provide a link to the forum.
I do not have favorite one. When I feel like visiting one I just google 'israelforum'.
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Default 2nd March 2009

there are plenty of forums. just like finding this forum wasn't too hard.

maybe try this one: Israel Military Forum

I don't have a favorite israeli forum in english, i prefer hebrew ones, they tend to be more populated.

you're mistaken about iraq, btw. the iraqi army was never on the doorsteps of tel-aviv. it went as far as the 'triangle' area and hasn't progressed from there due to being stopped by a counterattack. I asked my iraqi friends and they confirmed it.
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Default 3rd March 2009

Recommendations, all of wich have well-documented books:
Norman Finkelstein
Benny Morris
Shlomo ben Ami - Scars of war, wounds of peace
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Default 3rd March 2009

Quote:
there are plenty of forums. just like finding this forum wasn't too hard.

maybe try this one: Israel Military Forum

I don't have a favorite israeli forum in english, i prefer hebrew ones, they tend to be more populated.

you're mistaken about iraq, btw. the iraqi army was never on the doorsteps of tel-aviv. it went as far as the 'triangle' area and hasn't progressed from there due to being stopped by a counterattack. I asked my iraqi friends and they confirmed it.

Israel Military Forum: Sorry. The administrator has banned your IP address. To contact the administrator click here

Im sure you have lots of Iraqi friends.
Source please that says that the Iraqi army was not on the doorsteps of tel aviv. I dont really trust the word of your friend know what i mean.
Btw my sources are from my grandfather who was alive when these events unfolded.
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Default 6th March 2009

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Originally Posted by ArabJew View Post
echo... echo... cho... cho.. cho...

I suggest you go to an Israeli forum and start asking people about their narrative. A few hundreds of posts and threads here made me much wiser about the lebanese and their manners, more than the way-biased history-twisting resources i've read (from both sides, btw).

an echo chamber is not a very good place to learn.
Very typical of you people to attack the person rather then the issue, if you have something to say against what was said here, then say it and prove it, but no you have to insult the "Lebanese and their manner", is this your best deffense? you have no comments about what was posted about the belfour declaration?, do you think it's a lie ? tell us your version of the history let's hear it.
Well I have a feeling we won't hear anything but echo like you said
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Default The Palestinian Cause in 2 Minutes - 27th May 2009

The Palestinian Cause in 2 minutes:

Some people seem not to realize what it is all about:

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Default 31st May 2009

The tragedy of the people of Palestine is that their country was "given" by a foreign power to another people for the creation of a new state. The result was that many hundreds of thousands of innocent people were made permanently homeless. With every new conflict their numbers increased. How much longer is the world willing to endure this spectacle of wanton cruelty? It is abundantly clear that the refugees have every right to the homeland from which they were driven, and the denial of this right is at the heart of the continuing conflict. No people anywhere in the world would accept being expelled en masse from their own country; how can anyone require the people of Palestine to accept a punishment which nobody else would tolerate? A permanent just settlement of the refugees in their homeland is an essential ingredient of any genuine settlement in the Middle East. We are frequently told that we must sympathise with Israel because of the suffering of the Jews in Europe at the hands of the Nazis. [...] What Israel is doing today cannot be condoned, and to invoke the horrors of the past to justify those of the present is gross hypocrisy.
—Bertrand Russell, 31 January 1970
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Default 12th June 2009

It is proper to move the discussion to here since the whole is diverging.
Quote:
First, leave my morals be. Listening lecture on morals coming from Arab and especially from Muslim is a joke. Second, you started the war against Jews in 1948 and this fact alone excommunicates anything and everything you are getting or will ever get in response. Either continue ripping what you have sewn or ask for peace and pray your offer will be accepted.
Quote:
Very simple answer. I am not an Arab.
Okay, it seems that you want to veer clear from knowing the reasons for the 1948 war, because you fear that if you know the details; your whole perception on the matter will change. I will try, gladly to provide the information and explanations for the war, as dogmatic as you sound, i will try. Sorry for the bad English in some parts, i had to translate some of the passages from French.
"The Professor Judas Magnes, President of the Hebraic University since 1926, considered the "Biltmore Program" of 1942, which dictated the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine, that it Will lead to war against the Arabs
Source: Norman Bentwich. For Sion sake. Biographie of Judas Magnes. Jewish Publication society of America. 1954. p. 352.

Theodore Herzl writes Cecil Rhodes, 11 January 1902:
“I besiege you, send me a text detailing that you have examined my program and that you approve of it. You will be asking yourself why I am addressing myself to you, Sir Rhodes. Its because my program is a colonial program.”
Source: Herzl, Tagebuch. Vol. III, p. 105.

In 1938, Albert Enstein condemned the Jewish orientation of founding a Jewish national home on the premise:
“I would be, in my opinion, more reasonable to come into accord with the Arabs on the bases of a communal peaceful life instead of creating a Jewish State…The conscience that I have regarding the nature of Judaism conflicts with the idea of a Jewish State doted with frontiers, an army. I fear of internal damage Judaism will suffer because of the development of our ranks, of narrow nationalism…We are no longer Jews from the period of Macchabes. Re-becoming a nation, in the political sense of the word, will mean that we will have to deflect from the spirituality of our community which we owe to the genius of our prophets.”
Source: Rabbin Moshe Menuhin: The Decadence of Judaism in our time. 1969, p. 324.

“Across the mainstream Zionist spectrum, it was understood from the outset that Palestine’s indigenous Arab population would acquiesce in its dispossession. Contrary to the claim that is often made, Zionism was not blind to the presence of Arabs in Palestine, Zeev Sternhell observes. If Zionist intellectuals and leaders ignored the Arab dilemma, it was chiefly because they knew that this problem had no solution within the Zionist way of thinking…In general both sides understood each other well and knew that the implementation of Zionism could be only at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs. Moshe Shertko (later Sharett) contemptuously dismissed the “illusive hopes” of those who spoke about a “mutul misunderstanding” between us and the Arabs, about “common interests” and about the “the possibility of unity and peace between the two fraternal peoples”. “There is no example in history,” David Ben-Gurion declared, succinctly framing the core problem, “that a nation opens the gates of its country, not because of necessity….but because the nation which wants to come in has explained its desire to do it.”
The Zionists from early on were in fact bent on expelling the Palestinians. “The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings,” Tom Segev reports. “”Disappearing” the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition to its existence. ...With a few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer – or its morality.” They key was to get the timing right. Ben-Gurion, reflecting on the expulsion option in the late 1930s, wrote: “What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is possible in such great hours is not carried out – a whole world is lost.”
The goal of “disappearing” the indigenous Arab population points to a virtual truism buried beneath a mountain of apologetic Zionist literature: what spurred Palestinians’ opposition to Zionism was not anti-Semitism, in the sense of an irrational or abstract hatred for Jews, but rather the prospect – very real – of their own expulsion. “The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession”, Morris reasonably concludes, “was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism.” Likewise, in his magisterial study of Palestinian nationalism, Yehoshua Porath suggests that the “major factor nourishing” Arab anti-Semitism “was not hatred for Jews as such but opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine.” “
Source: Norman G. FINKELSTEIN: Image and Reality of The Israel-Palestine Conflict. 1995, p. xii.

So the reason why Arabs got into war with the prospective Jewish is nation is because they rightly feared their own demise which the Zionist were planning for. They were combating colonial enterprise which thought to castrate their will and power. Even prominent Jews, not within the Zionist ring of power, knew that the creation of Israel was going to lead to war, but what they didnt know was that Zionist plans dictated the removal of the Palestinians in order to ensure the survivability of the newly founded mercenary nation. If you want the mindset the Zionist had behind their forced relocation plans and which arguments they used to justify what they did, i can surely oblige.

Will reply to the rest of your response in sequence as it takes time to dig up and write this information. But you can in the mean answer the above.
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Default 13th June 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frisbeetarian View Post
It is proper to move the discussion to here since the whole is diverging.


Okay, it seems that you want to veer clear from knowing the reasons for the 1948 war, because you fear that if you know the details; your whole perception on the matter will change. I will try, gladly to provide the information and explanations for the war, as dogmatic as you sound, i will try. Sorry for the bad English in some parts, i had to translate some of the passages from French.
"The Professor Judas Magnes, President of the Hebraic University since 1926, considered the "Biltmore Program" of 1942, which dictated the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine, that it Will lead to war against the Arabs
Source: Norman Bentwich. For Sion sake. Biographie of Judas Magnes. Jewish Publication society of America. 1954. p. 352.

Theodore Herzl writes Cecil Rhodes, 11 January 1902:
“I besiege you, send me a text detailing that you have examined my program and that you approve of it. You will be asking yourself why I am addressing myself to you, Sir Rhodes. Its because my program is a colonial program.”
Source: Herzl, Tagebuch. Vol. III, p. 105.

In 1938, Albert Enstein condemned the Jewish orientation of founding a Jewish national home on the premise:
“I would be, in my opinion, more reasonable to come into accord with the Arabs on the bases of a communal peaceful life instead of creating a Jewish State…The conscience that I have regarding the nature of Judaism conflicts with the idea of a Jewish State doted with frontiers, an army. I fear of internal damage Judaism will suffer because of the development of our ranks, of narrow nationalism…We are no longer Jews from the period of Macchabes. Re-becoming a nation, in the political sense of the word, will mean that we will have to deflect from the spirituality of our community which we owe to the genius of our prophets.”
Source: Rabbin Moshe Menuhin: The Decadence of Judaism in our time. 1969, p. 324.

“Across the mainstream Zionist spectrum, it was understood from the outset that Palestine’s indigenous Arab population would acquiesce in its dispossession. Contrary to the claim that is often made, Zionism was not blind to the presence of Arabs in Palestine, Zeev Sternhell observes. If Zionist intellectuals and leaders ignored the Arab dilemma, it was chiefly because they knew that this problem had no solution within the Zionist way of thinking…In general both sides understood each other well and knew that the implementation of Zionism could be only at the expense of the Palestinian Arabs. Moshe Shertko (later Sharett) contemptuously dismissed the “illusive hopes” of those who spoke about a “mutul misunderstanding” between us and the Arabs, about “common interests” and about the “the possibility of unity and peace between the two fraternal peoples”. “There is no example in history,” David Ben-Gurion declared, succinctly framing the core problem, “that a nation opens the gates of its country, not because of necessity….but because the nation which wants to come in has explained its desire to do it.”
The Zionists from early on were in fact bent on expelling the Palestinians. “The idea of transfer had accompanied the Zionist movement from its very beginnings,” Tom Segev reports. “”Disappearing” the Arabs lay at the heart of the Zionist dream, and was also a necessary condition to its existence. ...With a few exceptions, none of the Zionists disputed the desirability of forced transfer – or its morality.” They key was to get the timing right. Ben-Gurion, reflecting on the expulsion option in the late 1930s, wrote: “What is inconceivable in normal times is possible in revolutionary times; and if at this time the opportunity is missed and what is possible in such great hours is not carried out – a whole world is lost.”
The goal of “disappearing” the indigenous Arab population points to a virtual truism buried beneath a mountain of apologetic Zionist literature: what spurred Palestinians’ opposition to Zionism was not anti-Semitism, in the sense of an irrational or abstract hatred for Jews, but rather the prospect – very real – of their own expulsion. “The fear of territorial displacement and dispossession”, Morris reasonably concludes, “was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism.” Likewise, in his magisterial study of Palestinian nationalism, Yehoshua Porath suggests that the “major factor nourishing” Arab anti-Semitism “was not hatred for Jews as such but opposition to Jewish settlement in Palestine.” “
Source: Norman G. FINKELSTEIN: Image and Reality of The Israel-Palestine Conflict. 1995, p. xii.

So the reason why Arabs got into war with the prospective Jewish is nation is because they rightly feared their own demise which the Zionist were planning for. They were combating colonial enterprise which thought to castrate their will and power. Even prominent Jews, not within the Zionist ring of power, knew that the creation of Israel was going to lead to war, but what they didnt know was that Zionist plans dictated the removal of the Palestinians in order to ensure the survivability of the newly founded mercenary nation. If you want the mindset the Zionist had behind their forced relocation plans and which arguments they used to justify what they did, i can surely oblige.

Will reply to the rest of your response in sequence as it takes time to dig up and write this information. But you can in the mean answer the above.

I do not have great deal of time, but one quote struck me right off.
Rest would require further research and I suspect will yeld similar results.

Here is the quote:

Quote:
In 1938, Albert Enstein condemned the Jewish orientation of founding a Jewish national home on the premise:
“I would be, in my opinion, more reasonable to come into accord with the Arabs on the bases of a communal peaceful life instead of creating a Jewish State…The conscience that I have regarding the nature of Judaism conflicts with the idea of a Jewish State doted with frontiers, an army. I fear of internal damage Judaism will suffer because of the development of our ranks, of narrow nationalism…We are no longer Jews from the period of Macchabes. Re-becoming a nation, in the political sense of the word, will mean that we will have to deflect from the spirituality of our community which we owe to the genius of our prophets.”
Source: Rabbin Moshe Menuhin: The Decadence of Judaism in our time. 1969, p. 324.

If you noticed Eistein's quote predates birth of Israel by 10 years during which discussion was still going on.
But most importantly it predates Arab riots and Jewish pogroms during 1941-1945, which left thousands of Jews dead.
It would be more appropriate to find Eistein's quote on the subject, which is dated after May, 14th of 1948.
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