Quote:
Originally Posted by LebanesePride  Really, thanks for your useless contribution.
Wth are you going on about?
Can you recite for me the entire history of the conflict? Het la nchouf. You have it all memorised?
You know the names of the towns and how many people were displaced from this one or that one? You know the reports of the israeli orders? You know how many lands were bought? You have it all memorized bi rassak because you grew up here?
3anjad, youre so much more of a patriot and humanist than me for knowing this.
Now, please educate us?
Oh and if im ever debating this or trying to tell someone about this conflict (which was the point of the thread), do i just quote "False Morel's head" to them, and itll be enough? |
hehe.. Now this is first time a misunderstanding like that happens by me on an online forum!
Well, as I usually tend doing, I did intend through my last post to provoke you into replying in a such leveled post as you did, but I was aiming to a completely different point within the topic of this thread as to the point you misunderstood and replied upon. Unexpected bizarreness.
Anyway, for the sake of the topic's importance, I shall ignore that and avoid any other manipulations which could lead to other similar tense situations. Here's what I have to say regarding the topic:
To begin with, lets divide the so called conflict into two chronological parts: Prior 1948, and post 1948.
Prior 1948:
(This is the point where I thought you'd be provoked about!)
Anyhow, what we should take into account in this era is late 19th century on; specifically after the Zionist Organization was established. Prior to this time, there's actually nothing related to the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict!
I know many Jews, specially the Zionists, claim that the land is theirs whereas they were exiled some 2500 years ago out of it! And Western Supporters either fall victims to this lie or play the wise and peaceful at utter hypocrisy by depicting the whole as "why should one ask who came first the egg or the chicken" question and suggest the two-state solution.
Some remarks on this ancient myth, for personally I find it off-topic:
First, one should differentiate between an Israeli and an Israelite. Israeli corresponds to a citizen of Israel which was declared an independent state in 1948. Before that time, an Israeli would be non-existent. An Israelite is a correspondent term to the first Jews arrived to the region named Palestine some centuries later. At that time it was called Canaan I think. They are referred to as the descendants of Jacob. Of course, there were then some other ethnic groups already inhabiting the place. The Israelites managed to gain rule some 3000 years ago. They formed a Monarchy which was split later into two kingdoms. They lasted few centuries till they got conquered and exiled some 2500 years ago. They gained residence back under the Persian rule, and so on..
Bottom line, the Israelites history resembles all other ethnic groups' one! This is the normal flow of human history and successions of civilizations. If we are to adopt that theory and look deeply in every modern country's history, no current natives of one single country would be found out pure first inhabitants or direct descendants of them! This is just cheap propaganda to delude simple-minded people.
Now, back to topic, Till 19th century, Jews from different parts of Europe were immigrating in Palestine due to the Catholic prosecutions in the medieval times. They took refuge and settled in piece along with the local Jewish minorities.
Late 19th century, the Zionism arose as a political organization claiming that the Jews have the right to get their independent state. Afterwards, the Zionist Organization lobbied in Britain for their cause and managed to gain that famous promise of Balfour, Foreign Secretary at that time, who declared via a letter to the British Lord the approval of the British Government for the establishment of a Jewish State in Palestine.
At that time, the Zionists were working on attracting Jews from Europe, Soviet Union, and other regions to come settle in Palestine. Those immigrations were categorized in five successive stages, known as the five Aliyahs, starting from late 19th century under the Ottoman Empire till 1940. By 1940, the estimated population of the Jews arose significantly reaching half a million! After being less than 10 thousands at the start of the 19th century and about 15 thousands at the start of the 20th century without counting the first Aliyah! (According to Alexander Scholch, the population of Palestine in 1850 had about 350,000 inhabitants, 30% of whom lived in 13 towns; roughly 85% were Muslims, 11% were Christians and 4% Jews)
During WWII, illegal immigration, supported and supervised by the Zionists, was undertaken as well!
Note that, till the Zionists' organized work started taking place, the already existing Jews lived peacefully in the region, and were actually fully integrated within the Arabic communities. In Beirut for instance, there were some considerable numbers of Jews in the Mina District. In Saida, as well, there was an avenue named after them. They were actually more integrated than other sects, such as the Druze and the Armenians! The same applies to all other Arabic countries. Strangely too, most of the Lebanese Jews emigrated to America and Europe, Brazil hosting the majority of them. A minority "fled" to Israel.
As a side note as well, the Zionist Organization threatened and against Eastern European to force them emigrate to Israel! This is a very well known information, but with no sources.
To add, the Arabic-Israeli conflict isn't a Muslim-Jewish one! It's an ideological one, as Zionism vs Arabism. Thus, the prejudice against Zionist from the Arabic side, and not towards the Jewish religion/faith in general. However, due to the fact that more than 90% of the Jews around the world support Zionism and the state of Israel, brought that religious hatreds between the Muslims in specific and the Jews.
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1947 - 1949:
In early 1947, riots began to take place from the Jewish side demanding the British to declare a separate state for them. By that time, they constituted 33% of the overall population. Following the events, the British forces available back then hadn't the capability to handle those riots and violence. They decided to set an early date to their withdrawal from the so called at that time the British Mandate of Palestine. The UN, in the mean time, approved the Resolution 181 by which Palestine was separated into two states according the the
UN Partition Plan. The Jewish immediately accepted the resolution while the palestinians and all Arabs rejected it. Consequently, a civil war emerged between the two sides. It was the first direct war to happen between the Jewish and Arabs.
On May the 14th 1948, a day before the withdrawal of the British Forces, the Jewish declared their independence of their state which they named it Israel. The next day started the first real and mass exodus of the arab Palestinians. That day always referred to as the "Al Nakba Day" by the Palastinians and all Arabs.
Reacting, Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, waged all a war on the newly declared Israeli State and tried to invade it.
That was the first Arab-Israeli war out of many to follow! That war lasted a year and resulted actually in strengthening the Israeli state.
A huge 80% of the arab Palestinians were expelled or fled the country, the first Palestinian Exodus to take place. And the Israelis widened their borders to the so called Green Line back then and stayed their up till now. Later they even occupied more territories in wars to come. The currently called West Bank and East Jerusalem was kept under the Jordanian control, whereas Gaza was kept under Egyptian control. Israel was recognized by the UN as an independent member late 1949. As of that time, Israel and Zionist Organization did some hard work to develop that state and attract/force mass immigration of the existing Jewish communities in the African-Arab countries, Eastern Europe, and other regions.
Two important notes to stress within these two crucial years.
First, the fact that the Palestinians, who fled, didn't do so voluntarily!! They were forced to. The Zionists try to picture themselves as peaceful loving people, while in the West Bank thousands still till today live in camps surrounding main cities! As in Saida, Sour, and Tripoli in Lebanon! Imagine someone to abandon his own house and city, to go live in camps in other foreign cities!
But hey, the Zionists nowadays are part of the civilized western World, and whoever mentions these would be automatically labeled as an extremist propagandist! Even, the innocent killings, murders, assassinations, mass genocides, and every other mean to expel the Palestinians from their own homeland or in other words any mean of eradicating an entire race and nation, are all blinded out and omitted from modern history!
Thus, the lack of official and accurate sources. No accurate and reliable numbers are available. Some modern historians mention in some of their books numbers in specific. But every historian has his own set of numbers and narrative, depending on which side he belongs to!
What a shame! What a shame on us all, the Lebanese in specific and Arabs in general.
When I mentioned this in my last post, Lebanese Pride, I didn't mean to refer to you personally! But to all of us. Yes, a Lebanese surfing the Internet to find some info about these significant historic events which are directly and decisively related to our history is a nice initiative but a shameful reflecting fact of us all. No need to elaborate further I guess, the point should be clear enough.
The second point would the mystery behind skipping or intentionally not mentioning the fact where did the Israelis get their support in order to survive that civil war in 1947 and later to stop five surrounding countries from invading their territories and yet, in contrast, capturing even more land, with such less human resources and supposedly lower levels! There aren't many possibilities however, isn't it?
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Post the Israeli State Establishment:
Almost everyone knows up that moment what happened:
- The major wars: Reasons, results, and effects
- Signed peace treaties by cheap arab sides with the Israelis
- Further Palestinian exoduses
- The two Intifadas of 1987 and 2000.
- Liberation of Southern Lebanon in 2000.
- Current situation of the Palestinian territories. Blockade and War on Gaza, which is controlled by Hamas, and the status of West Bank controlled by Fateh.
Here, it's worth mentioning that few have a complete idea on the status of the West Bank! Actually, the West Bank is divided into three areas by the Israelis, Area A, B, and C. Area C is under direct control of the Israelis forces. Area B is handled by the Palestinian Security forces, but under the command and surveillance of the Israelis. Area A is supposed to be under control of the Palestinian authorities. Still there are huge camps surrounding some major cities in the West Bank. Other than that is well known, I guess.
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In brief, their are two aspects to look at the conflict from.
At one aspect, one should consider the question whether the Jews and the Zionists deserve or have the right to establish a state of their on a land that isn't theirs. Regarding this matter, relying on my personal experience, I can tell that the world's public stand is against. Now, discussing logic, and religious ideologies, what the Zionists did and still doing should be condemned in any mean.
On the other hand, personally, I believe, that all the support the Israeli got and still getting to establish and maintain their independent status isn't by any mean a case of righteousness or ideological or religious affiliation from the Western World! The fate of the Zionist State is dependent on the Western Support, political and military support. For that, Israel serves as an additional state of control and influence for the West on the region! Thus, the term "Fake" to describe that terrorist state with.
Anyway, as to the Bibliography as I already mentioned unfortunately there are no official historic reports or books written!
There are few, from both sides, but inaccurate, and not reliable.
However, there are plenty of analysis books to go through. All of them however are considered to take either sides of the conflict.
Two of those would be the ones Fidelio mentioned above. Finkelstein's book got good reputation among the "free thinkers" around the world as I'd label them. Other than that, the only way I'd recommend is to surf the internet for all available related books. And go through each one individually in order to come up with best unbiased point of view possible.
As a start here's a
Wikipedia link posting some of those references.
Wikipedia links on the Palestinian exoduses:
1948 Exodus 1949 - 1956 Exodus 1967 Exodus
Man, that was a long post! I hope it could enlighten some people.
17th January 2009
