Do you support a regime change in Syria?

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by Zayn

Islamism has its flaws just as capitalism, socialism, and communism have their flaws. At the end of the day, it should be the will of the people who decide what system they want. I support the deposition of all Arab rulers and, most importantly, the shrugging off of Western imperialism.

Keep in mind: The West is not a beacon of freedom and democracy. It is a beacon of capitalism.

The West may be the beacon of capitalism, but it is equally the beacon of freedom and democracy!

As far as I'm concerned, no society is ever perfect, and discrimination and racism will always exist. Here in Belgium, Flemish and Walloons have their issues, so do Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, but also Spanish Basque countries and Catalan...

But still, people have the freedom of expression. And expression here means political, social, economical, religious, etc.

Do people have that in Islamic countries?

Democracy is not only the dictatorship of the majority!

In democracies, minorities are reserved all the freedoms and rights I mentioned above!

In Iran and KSA, non-Muslim women are veiled, pork is forbidden, so is alcohol, and strong punishments are reserved for people who break the law! In Syria too, Muslim women aren't allowed to convert and/or get married to Christian men, but the other way around no problem... Is that freedom and democracy? And I'm only beginning: what about premarital sex, homosexuality, partying between boys and girls who aren't married... And these are only social freedoms I'm talking about! What about the political freedoms?

No my friend, any country where the State or the majority imposes its views and lifestyle on others is a dictatorship. Any country where the State protects the freedoms and rights of individuals against the discrimination of the majority is a democracy!

[Salome]

Originally Posted by dodzi

The West may be the beacon of capitalism, but it is equally the beacon of freedom and democracy!

As far as I'm concerned, no society is ever perfect, and discrimination and racism will always exist. Here in Belgium, Flemish and Walloons have their issues, so do Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, but also Spanish Basque countries and Catalan...

But still, people have the freedom of expression. And expression here means political, social, economical, religious, etc.

Do people have that in Islamic countries?

Democracy is not only the dictatorship of the majority!

In democracies, minorities are reserved all the freedoms and rights I mentioned above!

In Iran and KSA, non-Muslim women are veiled, pork is forbidden, so is alcohol, and strong punishments are reserved for people who break the law! In Syria too, Muslim women aren't allowed to convert and/or get married to Christian men, but the other way around no problem... Is that freedom and democracy? And I'm only beginning: what about premarital sex, homosexuality, partying between boys and girls who aren't married... And these are only social freedoms I'm talking about! What about the political freedoms?

No my friend, any country where the State or the majority imposes its views and lifestyle on others is a dictatorship. Any country where the State protects the freedoms and rights of individuals against the discrimination of the majority is a democracy!

These are common concerns of a "western mind" who is socialized in a democratic regime.
Main point is it doesnt matter what our concerns are, it matters what the people in the mentioned countries want.

Do the people of Syria, KSA and Iran want freedom, democracy and ensured human rights? If yes, they have to work on it from internally. Even if they are persecuted, imprisoned, or silenced....they are the ones who have to start it, and they will have the media support and pressure of the democratic countries.

It is proven already democracy can not be imposed from outside.

In case of Syria, if they ever reach democracy and secularism it might take a very long time. If the Syrians want it anyway...

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by dodzi

The West may be the beacon of capitalism, but it is equally the beacon of freedom and democracy!

As far as I'm concerned, no society is ever perfect, and discrimination and racism will always exist. Here in Belgium, Flemish and Walloons have their issues, so do Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, but also Spanish Basque countries and Catalan...

But still, people have the freedom of expression. And expression here means political, social, economical, religious, etc.

Do people have that in Islamic countries?

Democracy is not only the dictatorship of the majority!

In democracies, minorities are reserved all the freedoms and rights I mentioned above!

In Iran and KSA, non-Muslim women are veiled, pork is forbidden, so is alcohol, and strong punishments are reserved for people who break the law! In Syria too, Muslim women aren't allowed to convert and/or get married to Christian men, but the other way around no problem... Is that freedom and democracy? And I'm only beginning: what about premarital sex, homosexuality, partying between boys and girls who aren't married... And these are only social freedoms I'm talking about! What about the political freedoms?

No my friend, any country where the State or the majority imposes its views and lifestyle on others is a dictatorship. Any country where the State protects the freedoms and rights of individuals against the discrimination of the majority is a democracy!

Really? The West is a beacon of freedom and democracy? Their track record speaks differently. Who arms and supports the dictatorships of the third world as a matter of policy? The West. Who has overthrown democratically elected governments in third world countries of every corner of the globe for decades? The West. Who mercilessly exploits 90% of the world's population for their own benefit? The West. What is this freedom and democracy you're talking about? All I see is a system run by rampant capitalism. Who do you think sets policies? Do you think the United States would have invaded Iraq, overthrown the democratically elected government of Iran in the 50s, overthrown the democratically elected governments in Latin America throughout the Cold War, or suppressed the vote of the Palestinian people if it wasn't at the behest of some rich donors?

Look who the top contributors are to both the Democratic and Republican parties in the United States. They're all corporations. So who do you think takes precedent when politicians formulate their policies? The general populace or that top .0001% of society who is funding the West's politicians and who have zero conscience in regards to the suffering they cause all over the world?

Your clothes are made in sweatshops via slave labor. Your plastics come from a third world country whose surrounding area is a toxic desert wasteland due to unregulated pollution. Africans are dying and starving for diamonds, which are artificially overvalued and owned by non-Africans. Israel is able to fly over Lebanon and bomb the holy hell out of it because there are rich people in the United States funneling money into the pockets of our politicians. Don't give me this freedom and democracy BS. I was born and raised in the United States and have been here my entire life.

You want to claim that the West is a beacon of freedom and democracy when it's footprint across the planet is one of death and destruction. If this is your idea of freedom and democracy then see a psychiatrist.

Just remember: the benefits we enjoy in the West come at the expense of the rest of the world.

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by Zayn

Really? The West is a beacon of freedom and democracy? Their track record speaks differently. Who arms and supports the dictatorships of the third world as a matter of policy? The West. Who has overthrown democratically elected governments in third world countries of every corner of the globe for decades? The West. Who mercilessly exploits 90% of the world's population for their own benefit? The West. What is this freedom and democracy you're talking about? All I see is a system run by rampant capitalism. Who do you think sets policies? Do you think the United States would have invaded Iraq, overthrown the democratically elected government of Iran in the 50s, overthrown the democratically elected governments in Latin America throughout the Cold War, or suppressed the vote of the Palestinian people if it wasn't at the behest of some rich donors?

Look who the top contributors are to both the Democratic and Republican parties in the United States. They're all corporations. So who do you think takes precedent when politicians formulate their policies? The general populace or that top .0001% of society who is funding the West's politicians and who have zero conscience in regards to the suffering they cause all over the world?

Your clothes are made in sweatshops via slave labor. Your plastics come from a third world country whose surrounding area is a toxic desert wasteland due to unregulated pollution. Africans are dying and starving for diamonds, which are artificially overvalued and owned by non-Africans. Israel is able to fly over Lebanon and bomb the holy hell out of it because there are rich people in the United States funneling money into the pockets of our politicians. Don't give me this freedom and democracy BS. I was born and raised in the United States and have been here my entire life.

You want to claim that the West is a beacon of freedom and democracy when it's footprint across the planet is one of death and destruction. If this is your idea of freedom and democracy then see a psychiatrist.

Just remember: the benefits we enjoy in the West come at the expense of the rest of the world.

This is another issue... I will not deny anything you say although I would say it's more complicated than that. You are talking as if the West is the only one responsible for the tyranny and exploitations that prevail in the rest of the world...

But things are changing, maybe slowly and perhaps not as flagrant as they should be... The reason behind that is that citizens have very rarely had their say in foreign policy. Only the political elite had their ways because of their own interests, and the people were left out! But today this is changing!

Nonetheless, in the West, you do have democracy and freedom, and the State doesn't discriminate between citizens... No country's perfect, but the most democratic countries and the countries with the most freedom are all in Europe and North America... You can't deny that...

[Zayn]

Originally Posted by dodzi

This is another issue... I will not deny anything you say although I would say it's more complicated than that. You are talking as if the West is the only one responsible for the tyranny and exploitations that prevail in the rest of the world...

But things are changing, maybe slowly and perhaps not as flagrant as they should be... The reason behind that is that citizens have very rarely had their say in foreign policy. Only the political elite had their ways because of their own interests, and the people were left out! But today this is changing!

Nonetheless, in the West, you do have democracy and freedom, and the State doesn't discriminate between citizens... No country's perfect, but the most democratic countries and the countries with the most freedom are all in Europe and North America... You can't deny that...

The West is almost entirely responsible for all of the tyranny wrought upon the world's suffering. From Latin America to the Middle East to Africa to Southeast Asia--they've all been subjugated by the West at some point, and continue to be.

Things are not changing and I don't see why you say that they are. Where is the change? I was talking to my father in the car the other day, and we got on the topic of politics. He told me that when he first came to the United States in 1985, Husni Mubarak was president of Egypt. Today, twenty-four years later, Husni Mubarak is still the president of Egypt, and the sons of past dictators have taken the helm in other Arab countries. The only change is that there is a rise in anti-Western forces that are popularly supported all over the world. See the Islamist Revolution in the Middle East or the Bolivarian Revolution in South America as the two best examples.

What do ordinary citizens have a say in? Look at the United States economic collapse. Do you think that if the average American had a say (or even a clue) about what was happening on Wall Street that our economy would have gone asunder? Absolutely not. Similarly, we don't have a say in a foreign policy that subjugates, rapes, and humiliates weaker countries. About all we have a say in is which servant of the ultra-rich comes to power. Like I said, the top donors in the USA are all corporations.

You're very keen to criticize the same Arab dictatorships that are on the USA's financial life support system. From the way you're talking, you'd think that Arabs enjoy living under dictatorship and abhor freedom. Notice that every dictatorship on the planet behaves in the same oppressive way, it is not unique to Arab states.

Yes, I have the freedom to say whatever I want and do whatever I want here in the United States, but that does not mean that this country is model for freedom or democracy. How are you going to call the United States a model for freedom when it has actively sought to crush democratically elected governments for decades and supports today's most tyrannical regimes? Why are other nations not free? As I said before, do you think it's because Arabs and other subjugated peoples hate freedom? Why do you insist that the West is a model for human rights and universal freedoms when it caused the deaths of a million Iraqis (think about that number for a moment) in a failed war over oil? As I said before, the US is a beacon for capitalism and cheap prices. These cheap prices, of course, come at the expense of others. We pay about a $1.75 for a gallon of gas here. How much do you pay for it in Europe? A lot more, right? That's because Belgium doesn't have military bases in Qatar.

Perhaps you think I'm being one-dimensional and blaming all of the world's ills on a single Great Satan, but I am being 100% serious here and this is the way the world is. Open your eyes and see for yourself because the facts are all in front of you. I just find it all very ironic that you jump so quickly to the defense of the West despite all of the horrors it has brought upon Lebanon and its people. Furthermore, since re-iteration is a common theme for this post, I want to re-establish my ethos here: I am not some disgruntled Arab in the Middle East. I am a born-and-raised United States citizen that has lived and breathed the USA for my entire life. The only passport I have is an American one. Yet, I am still here telling you that this ostensibly free country is anything but a purveyor of freedom to the masses. America is about money first, freedom second.

In case you're wondering, my ideal world is one in which people do not suffer because they are born in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Zayn]

For all of you curious about US foreign policy, I suggest you read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." It outlines the basic policy that the United States adopts when dealing with a new leader in a foreign country. I'll give you a brief summary:

1. When a new leader comes to power, the United States will immediately dispatch "economic hitmen" to that country in order to corrupt the leader. This corruption comes in the form of selling off vital services to US corporations like education, water, sewage, farming, etc. If the leader complies, then the United States will offer them military and political protection. Real life examples: Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan.

2. If the leader refuses to be corrupted, the United States will send in the "Jackals." The Jackals are CIA agents who seek to cause civil unrest or outright assassinate the leader. Real life examples: Guatemala, Panama, Venezuela, and Iran.

3. If the Jackals fail to depose the leader through clandestine means, the United States will send in its military to forcibly depose the leader. Real life examples: Iraq, Panama, Vietnam.

Here's a list of just a few countries that the US has wrought havoc upon in the past few decades. Countries marked with an asterisk denote countries that have had democratically elected governments overthrown via direct US involvement, or attempted to be overthrown with US aid:

Guatemala*
Iran*
Bolivia*
Venezuela*
Cuba*
Saudi Arabia
Egypt
Jordan
Palestine*
Lebanon*
Iraq
South Africa*
Somalia
Haiti
The Dominican Republic
Vietnam*
Cambodia
Laos
The Phillipines
Grenada*
Afghanistan
Pakistan*