Discussion on the fondamentals of zionism and Israel

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

I can't beleive that you are comparing Israeli Force (western European Huge Colonial Forces with the latest Weapons Backed by the English Who already had palestine occupied AND NOW BACKED BY AMERICAN FIRE POWER AND ECONOMY) You compare it to the force of Palestine (Inferior technologies, Civilazation that is Tired from previous Ottoman ,French and English Occupations, with no technology to defend them, living only in simplicity and backed by their Arab neighbors who were also under the same occupations, almost has no weapons,TODAY BACKED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATIONS ONLY AND SOME LEBANESE RESISTANCE TO AN EXTENT).

SO this my friend is a mistake israelies and western media commit often IS THAT THEY TALK about both sides as if they are equals in every single aspect BUT that is NOT TRUE!!! and certainly doesn't prove much.

So this is a failed comparison in those days And it is also a failed Comparison Today.

wrong habibi :)
those days israelis had no supporters.
they smuggled weapons.
just like the palestinans and arabs did ;)

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

wrong habibi :)
those days israelis had no supporters.
they smuggled weapons.
just like the palestinans and arabs did ;)

Well you do have it now. And you still apply the same logic.

Besides YOU DID HAVE SUPPORT IN THOSE DAY IF you don't belive me GOOGLE IT FOR GOD"S SAKE JUST GOOGLE IT!!!!!

Some famous proof amongst many other proofs:

"President Harry S. Truman and US Support for Israeli Statehood

United States support for the partition of Palestine was crucial to the adoption of the UN partition plan and to the creation of the state of Israel. During World War II, the USA was anxious to maintain good relations with Saudi Arabia. President Roosevelt had promised King Saud that the USA would make no policy decisions about Palestine without consulting the Arabs, though Roosevelt tried to enlist Saud's support for allowing Jewish immigration to Palestine. Following Roosevelt's verbal promise to Saud to consult the Arabs about Palestine policy, he reiterated the promise in writing on April 5, 1945. However, a week later, Roosevelt was dead, replaced by Vice President Harry S. Truman, and the end of the war created a different political reality as well as bringing the revelation of massive murder of Jews in the Holocaust.

Despite his plainspoken ways, Harry S. Truman had a sweeping grasp of geopolitical realities. He was also a friend of the Jews who had made clear his support for the Zionist cause before WWII. He was strengthened in his resolve to help the Jews following the revelations of Nazi atrocities. On May 25, 1939, following the British White Paper of 1939 that limited Jewish immigration, Truman inserted a remark in the Congressional Record condemning the White paper as a repudiation of British obligations. At a Chicago rally in 1944, then Senator Truman said, "Today, not tomorrow, we must do all that is humanly possible to provide a haven for all those who can be grasped from the hands of Nazi butchers. Free lands must be opened to them."
Truman wrote in his memoirs, "The question of Palestine as a Jewish homeland goes back to the solemn promise that had been made to them [the Jews] by the British in the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - a promise which had stirred the hopes and the dreams of these oppressed people. This promise, I felt, should be kept, just as all promises made by responsible, civilized governments should be kept."

Truman was inexperienced in foreign affairs and initially felt he was out of his league and crushed by the burden of his new office and responsibilities. Nonetheless, he did not forget the Palestine question as soon as World War II was over."


So when i listen to you i imagine that the israelies and palestinians were throwing stones at one another PROPOSTEROUS!!! israel beat all arab countries put together a while later

[Nayla]

A summary of what happened in 1948 in Palestine..
And we can see how "peaceful" and kind the zionists were by attacking the palestinian people and doing their massacres.

"1948:

Haganah launches Operation Nachshon (first phase of Plan Dalet); Haganah Giv’ati Brigade and other units capture villages along Tel-Aviv - Jerusalem road from local Palestinian militia. Haganah starts offensive against Palestinian town of Tiberius. Haganah captures Palestinian village of Castal, west of Jerusalem, expelling its inhabitants.‘Abd al-Qader al-Husseini, charismatic Palestinian Resistance militia commander in Jerusalem district, is killed leading counterattack to recover Castal village. Irgun and Stern Gang massacre some 120 inhabitants in village of Deir Yassin, western suburb of Jerusalem and three miles from Castal. Second coastal “clearing” operation carried out by Haganah Alexandroni brigade and other units. Attacks and expulsions drive out almost all-Palestinian communities from coastal area from Haifa to Jaffa prior to British withdrawal. UN Security Council resolutions call for a special session of General Assembly and agree to US proposal for truce to be arranged through Jewish Agency and Arab Higher Committee. Palestinian and Zionist leaders object to US proposals presented to Security Council for temporary trusteeship agreement. General Zionist Council decides to establish independent Jewish State in Palestine on May 16th. Operation Har’el under Plan Nachshon. Villages along Jerusalem road attacked and demolished . The village of Nasereddine and Qalonia, Al Lajoun massacres . All subsequent Haganah operations until May 15th undertaken within framework of Plan Dalet (to drive Palestinians off their lands and homes into the West Bank, by any means necessary)
British troops evacuated the town of Safadon the 16th. Haganah started on the 17th of April, an offensive against town of Safad, and committed massacres at Khirbet Wa’ra al-Sawada , Husayniyya , and Balad ash Sheikh . The fall of the town of Tiberius. US submit Palestine trusteeship plan to UN.
British suddenly evacuate residential quarters of Haifa. Haganah launches Operation Misparayim to attack and occupy Haifa .
Resistance of local Palestinian militia in Haifa collapses. Haifa’s Palestinian population flees under combined shelling and ground offensives. Launching of Operation Chametz to conquer Jaffa, Haganah attacks suburban villages of Tell Rish, Yazur and Salameh . Haganah announces coordination of plans with Irgun. Palestinian ALA unit under Michel Issa succeeds in fighting its way into Jaffa in order to break Haganah siege. The fall of the village of Samakh in northern Palestine .
Launching Operation Yevussi for conquest of whole of Jerusalem; Haganah attacks Palestinian residential quarter of Sheikh Jarrah in East Jerusalem, cutting off the city from north, but are forced to hand it over to the British. Haganah’s attempt at cutting off Jerusalem from Jericho fails . All Palestinian quarters in West Jerusalem occupied by Haganah and residents driven out. "

source

This is how the zionist state were established.. You can imagine how long it will survive.
I can tell you this: not for a long time

[Nayla]

Some of their "nationalist" leaders and their biography:

- Chaim Weizmann (1874­-1952) was born in Motol, Russia and became a British subject in 1910

- David Ben-Gurion was born David Green in Plonsk, Russia(now in Poland).

- Moshe Sharett, 1894­-1965, Born in Russia, originally named Shertok

- Levi Eshkol (1895­-1969) was born Levi Shkolnik in Ukraine

- Golda Meir (1898-1978) was born Golda Mabovitz in Kiev, Ukraine

- Menachem Begin was born in Brest-Litovsk, Russia

- Yitzhak Shamir was born 1915 in Ruzinoy, a village in eastern Poland.

- Ehud Barak, was born 1942 as Ehud Brog, son of East European immigrants in Palestine

- Shimon Peres (1923 -) was born as Shimon Perski in Vishniva, Poland (now Belarus).

[Nayla]

Well, i'll post some paragraphs here for those who want to know something about the false propaganda of the zionists and their cruelty.

ZIONISM: A SECULAR NATIONALISM THAT BETRAYED JUDAISM

"According to Israeli statesman Amnon Rubinstein: "Zionism (was) a revolt againt their (Jews') fatherland and the synagouge of the Rabbis". Thus many Jews criticized the ideology of Zionism. Rabbi Hirsch, one of the foremost religious leaders of the time, said, "Zionism wants to define the Jewish people as a national entity ... which is a heresy."

The famous French Muslim thinker Roger Garaudy writes this on the subject:

The worst enemy of the prophetic Jewish faith is the nationalist, racist and colonialist logic of tribal Zionism, born of the nationalism, racism and colonialism of 19th century Europe. This logic, which inspired all the colonialisms of the West and all its wars of one nationalism against another, is a suicidal logic. There is no future or security for Israel and no peace in the Middle East unless Israel becomes "dezionized" and returns to the faith of Abraham, which is the spiritual, fraternal and common heritage of the three revealed religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

In this way, Zionism entered world politics as a racist ideology maintaining that Jews should not live with other nations. First of all, this mistaken idea created grave problems for and pressure on Jews living in the diaspora. Then for Muslims in the Middle East, it brought the Israeli policy of occupation and annexation, together with poverty, terror, bloodshed and death.

In short, Zionism was actually a form of secular nationalism that stems from secular philosophies, not from religion. However, as in the case of other versions of nationalism, Zionism also attempted to use religion for its own ends."

"However, a close examination reveals the existence of many of the religious truths contained in this once-revealed Book, such as faith in God, submission to Him, being grateful to Him, fear of God, love of God, justice, compassion, mercy, opposing cruelty and injustice, all of which prevail throughout the Torah and the other books of the Old Testament.

Apart from this, the wars that occurred in history and the resulting carnage are related in the Torah. If people want to find a basis - although by distorting the facts - for the cruelty, massacres, and murders, they can well take these sections as references. Zionism resorts to this very method to legitimize its terrorism, which is actually a fascist terrorism. And, it has become quite succesful. For instance, it has used the sections related to war and massacre to legitimize its massacres of innocent Palestinians. This is a deliberately distorted interpretation, however. Zionism uses religion to legitimize its fascist and racist ideology."

"But radical Jews, relying on distorted explanations, saw "chosenness" as a racial characteristic and therefore came to consider every Jew superior by birth and that the Children of Israel are forever considered superior to all other peoples.

The second great perversion in this viewpoint is presenting this alleged superiority as "an order to practice brutality on other nations."


"Moreover, such anti-gentile remarks contradict the Torah itself, such as those verse that condemn violence and cruelty. However, Zionism's racist ideology ignores such verses in order to create a belief system based upon resentment and rage. Rather than falling under the influence of Zionist ideology, those Jews who genuinely believe in God will realize that their religion tells them to abide by those other verses that praise peace, love, mercy, and ethical behavior."

"Another characteristic of Zionism is its reliance upon false propaganda themes, perhaps the most important of which is the slogan "a land without people for a people without land." In other words Palestine, the "land without people" must be given to the Jews, "the people without land."
In fact, the slogan "a land without people for a people without land" was untrue. When the Zionist movement began, the Jews were not "without land," nor was Palestine without people… "


"As of 1947, there were 630,000 Jews in Palestine and 1.3 million Palestinians. Between November 29, 1947, when Palestine was partitioned by the United Nations, and May 15, 1948, Zionist terrorist organizations captured three-fourths of Palestine. During this time, the number of Palestinians living in 500 cities, towns, and villages dropped from 950,000 to 138,000 as a result of attacks and massacres. Some were killed; others were exiled."

Source

[Nayla]

A zionist's testimony:


Roots of Israel’s violence

Originally published as Zionism to Genocide, Socialist Worker, 790, 3 July 1982

Looking back on my own experience in Palestine I can see how today’s horror grew from small beginnings. Zionism, Jewish separateness and the belief in a Jewish homeland, have developed into state violence. My parents were pioneering Zionists, leaving Russia for Palestine in 1902 to join a total Zionist population of a few thousand.

When the Zionists came to Palestine they continued to emphasise their separateness. Zionists took over Arab land, often evicting the occupiers. And the Zionists systematically discriminated against the thousands of Arab unemployed. Although Arabs were at least 80 percent of the population, not one came to my school.

My parents were extreme Zionists, and my father told me, “The only way to look at an Arab is through the sight of a gun.” I never shared a house with an Arab.

When Britain occupied Palestine in 1917, the Zionist leaders wrote to the Tory foreign minister Balfour explaining it was in Britain’s interests to have a strong Zionist presence in Palestine. And during the Second World War, as it became clear America was the main imperialist power, particularly in the Middle East, Zionist leaders switched their focus to Washington.

Back in Palestine Zionist outrages were developing. The state of Israel, declared in 1948, was accomplished by a terror campaign which drove hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their homes. The state was born with the “limited” massacre of 240 civilians in the village of Deir Yassin.

Men, women and children were slaughtered, some thrown alive down the village well. It was a place I knew well, just a few miles from my home. The Arabs aren’t the only ones to pay since then. Israel’s constant search for allies has made it increasingly a supplier of military equipment to the world's most reactionary regimes

In 1935 I would never have believed Zionists would murder civilians — they discriminated against the Arabs, that’s all. But in today’s harsh world any crack expands and the crack of Jewish separateness leads to the horrors we’ve seen in Lebanon. Those monstrosities are the logic of Zionism. Indeed, I fear we’ll see much worse from the Zionists in the future."

Source

[tsedek]

I don't find anything to discuss in articles copy/pasted that can easily be recountered with other articles copy/pasted totally blaming the arabs and palestinians. I didn't think this thread was intended for propaganda purposes....

The Rape of Palestine

start reading and we'll talk.

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

I don't find anything to discuss in articles copy/pasted that can easily be recountered with other articles copy/pasted totally blaming the arabs and palestinians. I didn't think this thread was intended for propaganda purposes....

The Rape of Palestine

start reading and we'll talk.

That is the Biggest Bunch of lies i've ever read, i could'nt even continue after half of it.
YOU ALL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED ZIONIST PROPAGANDA MACHINE. in which This man who wrote the article is an integral part of: "Joel Bainerman writes on Israeli political and economic affairs and is often published by right-wing Israeli media".

I thought the problem was with the USSR and the fact that jews were considered as communists and also the fact that they did not want bad relations with saudi arabia for oil related purposes, YET we read **** like this in the article: "The Moslem religious leaders, the Mufti, was openly friendly. Throughout Arabia, the chiefs were for the most part distinctly pro-Zionist and in Palestine the peasantry were delighted at every prospect of Jewish settlement near their villages. Commercial intercourse between Arab and Jew was constant and steady".

Now your problem with the Racist west as far as im concerened, is that French, British, German and Russian JEWS were not considered citizens of thier respective countries, Even if thier Great great great grandfather was living there, they were not treated as a religion But Instead as a NATION and this is the biggest act of anti-semetism in history, YET they blame ARABS who were living with Jewish people for hundereds of centuries in Harmony as Anti-semites ALTHOUGH ARABS ARE SEMITES.

Stop Blaming the Victims, western media always blames the Victims. The Irgun and The Stern Gang Were Killing British Soldiers And Hanging them in the orange Groves, They were assasinating UN envoys, they blew up the King David Hotel killing a hundred people in the proccess, SO they were not just killing Palestinians.

Do you have an ATLUS, OPEN IT!!! and you 'll find out that the only country that's been wiped out the face of the planet is PALESTINE. THERE ARE NO 2 STATES, THERE IS ONLY ONE STATE CALLED ISRAEL. SO WHAT CO_EXISTANCE AND WHAT **** YOUR MENTIONNING

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

......YOU ALL HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS SOMETHING CALLED ZIONIST PROPAGANDA MACHINE..........

And you have to understand that there is something called an anti-Zionist propaganda machine. Taking things out of context and misrepresenting them isn't a one-way street darling :)

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

in which This man who wrote the article is an integral part of: "Joel Bainerman writes on Israeli political and economic affairs and is often published by right-wing Israeli media".

That book wasn't written by Joel Bainerman, but by William Ziff in 1938!!!

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

And you have to understand that there is something called an anti-Zionist propaganda machine. Taking things out of context and misrepresenting them isn't a one-way street darling :)

Actually your wrong there is no Anti-Zionist propaganda machine, (give me a name and if so who funds it?), Zionist propaganda machines Such as Rupert Murdoch's SKY and Times And ......... Ted Turner And the CNN, The BBC and many other channels only show one point of view.

Originally Posted by tsedek

That book wasn't written by Joel Bainerman, but by William Ziff in 1938!!!

Sorry my Bad. But who is this william ziff ? can you give me some info ?

well I found this:
"The American Friends of a Jewish Palestine, the earliest of the committees, was founded
in 1939 to support the underground activities of the Irgun Zvai Leumi in the repatriation in
Palestine of Jewish refugees from German-held territory. The correspondence of the committee
that appears in these papers pertains to the publication of a new edition of The Rape of Palestine
by William B. Ziff; fund-raising activities; and conflicts with officials of the Emergency
Committee for Zionist Affairs (including Stephen S. Wise) and the United Palestine Appeal. Some
of the individuals whose letters appear in this committee's correspondence are Y. Ben Ami, Harry
Louis Selden, Mrs. John Gunther, William B. Ziff, and Louis Germain."

Besides the Book is called the "RAPE of Palestine" so regardless of what's written in it, This title doesn't help your cause at all. Palestine was raped by the israelies as far as I am concerned.