Discussion on the fondamentals of zionism and Israel

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

Obviously people owning land should stay on their land and their rights ensured. However if war is going on and there is fighting over and back between two sides - there is always the risk that one side might end up without anything (like that same risk existed for the jews owning land here).

YOU ARE ACTUALLY ADMITTING THE FACT THAT YOU TOOK THE LAND BY FORCE IN ORDER TO BUILD THE STATE !!!!!!!!!

You have just said that there were people that owened the lands and lived in them for generations and that there are people that came and took the land by force THUS palestinians Dis-possesed by force have ended up without anything like you stated. DOES THAT SOUND THE LEAST BIT FAIR ???

And next your gonna tell me that the palestinians left their lands Voluntarily!!
So did they leave Voluntarly?

[dodzi]

Originally Posted by tsedek

I haven't that much time to respond to so many different points you raise here in one go, TripolySunni. So, for starters I will respond to this:



When you own land in Lebanon or in any given country you still don't own the country. Obviously people owning land should stay on their land and their rights ensured. However if war is going on and there is fighting over and back between two sides - there is always the risk that one side might end up without anything (like that same risk existed for the jews owning land here).

(Now, if you are going to react to this, please give it to me in small portions so I can give it the deserved attention in the small amount of time I have available each time I log in, shukran )

Hi Tsedek,

First of all, this is the main argument of Israelis: it is true that there was never a "State" called Palestine, but you can't say that they hadn't a country! A country where they grew old, educated their children, had farms etc.. It was their home...

Second, When the UN gave 58% of Palestine to the Jews, while they only owned like 20% of the land, this is called many things but fair! So it is normal that there would be war after that! It was a diktat!

Third: dude, we are in the 21st century, yet you bring up old medieval war rules... You can't apply and say "we took this land fairly because they wanted war"...

No offense man, but is time to make concessions! You may tell me that the arabs have nothing to bargain against, but come on dude... It's time to make a change!

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by dodzi

Third: dude, we are in the 21st century, yet you bring up old medieval war rules... You can't apply and say "we took this land fairly because they wanted war"...

Lot's of good points there Dodzi but i would like to clarify or correctify certain Zionist claims stating that arabs started a war or arabs wanted the war, This is a big lie because when you research it you find out that what the arabs were trying to do was to stop the ethnic cleansing that took place in palestine from being completed AND it's because of this that we see that the arab armies came too late and with too little forces resulting in more massacres being committed by the israeli government.

[TripolySunni]

Now I want to issue an apology to all the Jewish people reading my posts if I scared them a little too much and I want to tell them that we have absolutely nothing against them personally, religiously or otherwise, Our problem lies with the Zionist government that has a blind support from every Neo-con and western government on the face of the planet.
So I get this reply once from a Jewish Israeli citizen that says:”if we wanna help the Palestinians return to their land and get their rights back, Then what will happen to us? Where will we go?”
The answer was simple: YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE WE WANT YOU TO STAY THERE ! let me repeat that one YOU DON’T HAVE TO GO ANYWHERE WE WANT YOU TO STAY THERE. After all the most peaceful solution remains as the one state solution in this tiny piece of territory in which every person Jew, Muslim and Christian would live as equals with one vote each and would each have the same rights THAT IS THE MOST PEACEFUL SOLUTION BUT NOT THE ONLY ONE.Regards from Al Mourabitoun

[proIsrael-nonIsraeli]

Originally Posted by dodzi

Second, When the UN gave 58% of Palestine to the Jews, while they only owned like 20% of the land, this is called many things but fair! So it is normal that there would be war after that! It was a diktat!

Third: dude, we are in the 21st century, yet you bring up old medieval war rules... You can't apply and say "we took this land fairly because they wanted war"...

'Second' point. UN partitioned Palestine and gave assigned land to each group to build a state. UN did not take land from individuals. Nor state of Israel did. Those Arabs who decided to accept partition and stay are prospering in Israel right now. Those who chose war mustn't complain about concequences. They took a gamble and lost.


'Third' point. What difference does century number make? It is exactly what it is. You started the war(s), you lost, fight again if you wish but do not complain and do not lie to your children and to the rest of the world.

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

'Second' point. UN partitioned Palestine and gave assigned land to each group to build a state. UN did not take land from individuals. Nor state of Israel did. Those Arabs who decided to accept partition and stay are prospering in Israel right now. Those who chose war mustn't complain about concequences. They took a gamble and lost.

They did not take a gamble my friend They forced a gamble on them NO BODY GAMBLES WITH THIER OWN LAND.As for arabs prospering in israel This is the biggest lie ever Only Jewish arabs are able to live properly, No actually even jewish arabs are living as second rate citizens. See it goes like this:

-1st are the european Jews (white people) have ruled the country ever since it was made.
-2nd are the orientals ARAB jews (Not equal to the above)
-3rd are the black jews (ignored and forgotten)
-4th are the arab non-jews. (hated and dispised with much inferior rights).

Besides deals such campDavid are all pro American pro Israeli deals, so if you look at the map of palestine and israel you would see that the CampDavid offered the palestinians less than 20% of thier homeland and inside these 20% they were not even provided with a proper independant state Besides these pro-israeli pro-american solutions did not offer any solution to the victims of ethnic cleansing or thier right to return THAT IS RECOGNISED BY UN.
The Oslo accord turned out to be an israeli search for a substitute for the occupation and not a genuine solution for the problem.

And yet many israeli zionists say that the palestinians were not kicked out of palestine and that they left Voluntarly! i dont really understand this argument because if this was the case then what consivable reasons could the israelies have for deniying them the RIGHT of RETURN !!!
(logically if u leave voluntarly then you could return at anytime) While any Jew anywhere in the world (vienna, london, newyork) has a legally enshrined right to go and live in palestine even if they had never been there before or thier great great great great grandfathers HAVE never been there !!!

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

'Third' point. What difference does century number make? It is exactly what it is. You started the war(s), you lost, fight again if you wish but do not complain and do not lie to your children and to the rest of the world.

as for this second point your right it does not matter what century you are in if your a terrorist a thief and a liar .
as for the war part, Please permit me to quote myself again cause i dont know if you read it but it was right infront of your face :"i would like to clarify or correctify certain Zionist claims stating that arabs started a war or arabs wanted the war, This is a big lie because when you research it you find out that what the arabs were trying to do was to stop the ethnic cleansing that took place in palestine from being completed AND it's because of this that we see that the arab armies came too late and with too little forces resulting in more massacres being committed by the israeli government."

[TripolySunni]

Let's talk about another israeli policy that goes by the name of "bulldozing palestinian Homes, uprooting of trees and distruction of crops".

So how does that happen? Well since 1967 when israel conquered the west bank, east jerusalem and GAZA in the six day war, israel has demolished 18,000 palestinian homes (NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE TERRORISTS), in 95% persent of these cases there was ofcourse no security element SO the people were not charged with anything they were just normal citizens And israel for over 40 years now (2 generations) refuses to give palestinians building permits SO houses are demolished every day and it is actually illegal to rebuild them! Palestinians resist this by standing infront of bulldozers (and dying), by throwing rocks (and dying), by chaining themselfs to the houses (and dying). now imagine having your house demolished when your not a criminal and you have'nt done anything wrong and yet you lose your most basic rights , this is the essence of the conflict that foreign jewish people coming into palestine saying: "this is our land EXCLUSEVLY we do not belive in Palestine or the palestinians" THEY dont even mention the word "palestinian" they talk about ARABS in a very GENERAL WAY.

Since 1948 israel has had this Policy and still continues until this very day!!! AND the result is that israel has demolished 500 entire palestinian villages inside what became israel. Here we go back to my previous posts Policy of Dis-possetion.

Let's talk about the israelies for a bit. the israelies Dont give a **** about the palestinians, they never see the occupation they never go into the occupied territory, They live in a BUBBLE and for the israelies life is good (good economy, Arms development, selling weapons, tourism). So the israelis in thier BUBBLE are living very securely Thanks to the army's reppretion of the palestinians and arabs in general. SO the israelies can continue living like this for the next 40 years BUT what about the palestinians? who are dying in HOSPITALS...

It's only normal that israelies dont have any sense of guilt, they dont know what house demolitions are, they dont know the DAMAGE the WALL does to palestinian houses, families, communities, agriculture..., for the israelies all this is happening on a different continent.

Point is that peace will never come from inside israel, israellies as i've mentionned can live like this for a very long time and THAT'S WHY WE NEED INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE !!!


Fun Fact:
AHRAM - Tue, 22 Jul 2008
Recent Israeli army aggressions against Palestinian charities, beauty salons and shops show unequivocally that Israel is morally lost
From Breaking News

Another fun fact is that today another Bulldozer attack happened in Jerusalem, So could it be that the Bulldozers used by the israeli government to demolish palestinian houses are comming back to HAUNT them ?!

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

YOU ARE ACTUALLY ADMITTING THE FACT THAT YOU TOOK THE LAND BY FORCE IN ORDER TO BUILD THE STATE !!!!!!!!!
...........

NO! It was force against force.

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by dodzi

Hi Tsedek,

First of all, this is the main argument of Israelis: it is true that there was never a "State" called Palestine, but you can't say that they hadn't a country! A country where they grew old, educated their children, had farms etc.. It was their home...

Hi Dodzi :) What you are saying here is contradicting itself :)
The people living on these lands indeed owned lands and should be reimbursed on having been victim of a war, but.......... indeed: there war no such "country" existing. Each tribe had their own institutional education and other means of improving knowledge

Originally Posted by dodzi

Second, When the UN gave 58% of Palestine to the Jews, while they only owned like 20% of the land, this is called many things but fair! So it is normal that there would be war after that! It was a diktat!

But when did this occur? ONLY after jews were denied of their right to settle on lands they BOUGHT :)

Originally Posted by dodzi

Third: dude, we are in the 21st century, yet you bring up old medieval war rules... You can't apply and say "we took this land fairly because they wanted war"...

I am not doing this. But to improvise all that happened 'then' into the 'now' perceptions and common ethic agreements = still isn't what it was like those days.

Originally Posted by dodzi

No offense man, but is time to make concessions! You may tell me that the arabs have nothing to bargain against, but come on dude... It's time to make a change!

I don't tell you any of this kind at all. Arabs(?) (not Palestinians?) have every right to claim what has been misdone to them as the jews claim has been misdone to them. absolutely no discrimination in that - however concessions have to be made on a broad acceptance of the ones feeling they are committing injustices based on a more severe threat, and that threat is: denial of their existence. So, what do you say about confirming Israel's existance?

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

NO! It was force against force.

I can't beleive that you are comparing Israeli Force (western European Huge Colonial Forces with the latest Weapons Backed by the English Who already had palestine occupied AND NOW BACKED BY AMERICAN FIRE POWER AND ECONOMY) You compare it to the force of Palestine (Inferior technologies, Civilazation that is Tired from previous Ottoman ,French and English Occupations, with no technology to defend them, living only in simplicity and backed by their Arab neighbors who were also under the same occupations, almost has no weapons,TODAY BACKED BY HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANISATIONS ONLY AND SOME LEBANESE RESISTANCE TO AN EXTENT).

SO this my friend is a mistake israelies and western media commit often IS THAT THEY TALK about both sides as if they are equals in every single aspect BUT that is NOT TRUE!!! and certainly doesn't prove much.

So this is a failed comparison in those days And it is also a failed Comparison Today.