Discussion on the fondamentals of zionism and Israel

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by proIsrael-nonIsraeli

First Zionists were secularists. Word of god did not mean much to them. However, majority of the Jews recognize only one place and therefore they refused to come elsewhere.

That is so true!!! but sadly the claim of israel being a holy land for the jewish people of the world is being used by almost every zionist and israely i've ever spoken to or read about, So seriously Since when was God a Real estate agent?

This proves that i was correct about zionists in my first Post when i said the creators of israel have no Biblical titles. So then can you educate us as to why This occupation happened? why this colonizing? could it be that the land had no people ???

[tsedek]

I would rather take up discussion on how a solution can be found instead of going over the past, over and over again, because that is something we will anyway never agree upon.

Taratatam?

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

That is so true!!! but sadly the claim of israel being a holy land for the jewish people of the world is being used by almost every zionist and israely i've ever spoken to or read about, So seriously Since when was God a Real estate agent?

This proves that i was correct about zionists in my first Post when i said the creators of israel have no Biblical titles. So then can you educate us as to why This occupation happened? why this colonizing? could it be that the land had no people ???

In our eyes it is no colonization but a matter of populating (a small part of) a country that knew no independent (and cooperative) government for centuries. The thought behind it was to bring a jewish majority here and live side by side in the same country, NOT to overtake privately owned lands etc.

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

The thought behind it was to bring a jewish majority here and live side by side in the same country, NOT to overtake privately owned lands etc.

But the matter of the fact is that the country Called palestine has been overtaken, and now we see people from West europe, Paris and London living inside The homes That were built 200 or 500 years ago by the palestinians We see thier History being erased AND we see the country itself being slowly drained of it's original inhabitants while the palestinians are being scattered to the four corners of the earth.

[Tararamtamtam]

Originally Posted by tsedek

I would rather take up discussion on how a solution can be found instead of going over the past, over and over again, because that is something we will anyway never agree upon.

Taratatam?

You forgot one "ra" :P

Well, I originally wanted to bring to this topic the issues that were raised in the other topic, and adding others that are related...

Plus, most of the issues I raised are more informational, facts that need to be known, and with relatively not much polemics...

I go with the logic that if there can be no knowledge of the origins of it all, even in both versions, we will never get to an understanding of the other's motifs, fears, hopes, ect. Even if we have several versions of certain things, at least in that way, we understand the full scope of how the others think...

My topic was more aimed at being a sort of presentation, an exhibition of the main conceptions, with their oppositions and versions, that are at the origins of the conflict, and the basis of each party's logic reasoning...


As for solutions, they can come out of that understanding... If each understands the fears, hopes, doleances, motifs, ect. and eventually, recognizes the hurts each has commited towards the other, then we can start working on a middle ground... It might work, it might not, but it's worth a try I think, and I'm sure we can get good results on certain issues...



I hope people will get interested by what I'm proposing here

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

But the matter of the fact is that the country Called palestine has been overtaken, and now we see people from West europe, Paris and London living inside The homes That were built 200 or 500 years ago by the palestinians We see thier History being erased AND we see the country itself being slowly drained of it's original inhabitants while the palestinians are being scattered to the four corners of the earth.

2 things:

there honestly was no such country as such. if so, you have to include the present jordan in it since under ottoman regime this was one big 'region'. still, nobody complains about jordan having usurped part of palestine. why is that?

the other thing: you are right. israeli injustices as in respect to the population that lived and lives here are numerous and totally unfair. however, what would you advise a country to do whose existence is denied and attacked? any advise here? (try to think this isn't israel, but a far-away country facing the same difficulty, that way you probably leave the emotional baggage out of it and come to objective advice)

[tsedek]

Originally Posted by Tararamtamtam

You forgot one "ra" :P

Well, I originally wanted to bring to this topic the issues that were raised in the other topic, and adding others that are related...

Plus, most of the issues I raised are more informational, facts that need to be known, and with relatively not much polemics...

I go with the logic that if there can be no knowledge of the origins of it all, even in both versions, we will never get to an understanding of the other's motifs, fears, hopes, ect. Even if we have several versions of certain things, at least in that way, we understand the full scope of how the others think...

My topic was more aimed at being a sort of presentation, an exhibition of the main conceptions, with their oppositions and versions, that are at the origins of the conflict, and the basis of each party's logic reasoning...


As for solutions, they can come out of that understanding... If each understands the fears, hopes, doleances, motifs, ect. and eventually, recognizes the hurts each has commited towards the other, then we can start working on a middle ground... It might work, it might not, but it's worth a try I think, and I'm sure we can get good results on certain issues...



I hope people will get interested by what I'm proposing here

You've done a terrific "job" TaraRAMtamtam ;) I believe you are right. However I also believe that we will NEVER get to see history through the same glasses. There will always be the emotional baggage attached to it in which to view things (and lay the accent upon) and thus history can in reality be the same but still differently interpreted. (this becomes psychological )

So, in order to continue I think it is very important to respect each other's "hurt" about it (irrelevant of understanding) and build a future (solution) on this basis.

Thank you for doing the 'tough' work for me, I really appreciate it. You know that!

[TripolySunni]

Originally Posted by tsedek

2 things:

there honestly was no such country as such. if so, you have to include the present jordan in it since under ottoman regime this was one big 'region'. still, nobody complains about jordan having usurped part of palestine. why is that?

the other thing: you are right. israeli injustices as in respect to the population that lived and lives here are numerous and totally unfair. however, what would you advise a country to do whose existence is denied and attacked? any advise here? (try to think this isn't israel, but a far-away country facing the same difficulty, that way you probably leave the emotional baggage out of it and come to objective advice)

Really so when was this palestinian lie invented ? and when did that flag first appear ?
From what i can gather is that you dont even believe that there was a state called palestine in the first place and that there was no palestinian people and THAT is the mother of all lies my friend, Because if there was no palestine and no palestinians Then who are the 5 Million people Living as refugees in the surrounding countries With keys and land Tiltles to the lands that they were driven from in palestine.
The fact remains that the superior race of europeans who were the original colonizers of palestine, all of these israeli leaders that extracted the promise from balfour were athiestic zionists NOT one of them beleived in God they were doing exactly what white people who were not jewish have been doing all over the world at the time, they were founding a colonial settlement. the problem that the palestinians had was that they were considered as a supposedly inferior race, They were arabs. and when Winston churchill was told that zionism could not be allowed to colonize palestine he discribed the palestinians as Dogs that dont have a right he described them as Sub-humans. That was the mentality behind the zionist occupation that palestinans could be colonized because they were sub-humans and the africans can be colonized because they were sub-humans and the asians could be colonized because they were sub-humans.

The palestinians were colonized because they were in a weakened state after the Ottoman and the english and french occupations. When the english considered themselfs TOP-DOGS and they built there paws in the middle east and called it israel and now the US has picked up the mantle.

How is that for a sad story? a very very sad story

[TripolySunni]

If you would permit me to please quote myself

Originally Posted by TripolySunni

Really so when was this palestinian lie invented ? and when did that flag first appear ?
From what i can gather is that you dont even believe that there was a state called palestine in the first place and that there was no palestinian people and THAT is the mother of all lies my friend, Because if there was no palestine and no palestinians Then who are the 5 Million people Living as refugees in the surrounding countries With keys and land Tiltles to the lands that they were driven from in palestine.
The fact remains that the superior race of europeans who were the original colonizers of palestine, all of these israeli leaders that extracted the promise from balfour were athiestic zionists NOT one of them beleived in God they were doing exactly what white people who were not jewish have been doing all over the world at the time, they were founding a colonial settlement. the problem that the palestinians had was that they were considered as a supposedly inferior race, They were arabs. and when Winston churchill was told that zionism could not be allowed to colonize palestine he discribed the palestinians as Dogs that dont have a right he described them as Sub-humans. That was the mentality behind the zionist occupation that palestinans could be colonized because they were sub-humans and the africans can be colonized because they were sub-humans and the asians could be colonized because they were sub-humans.

The palestinians were colonized because they were in a weakened state after the Ottoman and the english and french occupations. When the english considered themselfs TOP-DOGS and they built there paws in the middle east and called it israel and now the US has picked up the mantle.

How is that for a sad story? a very very sad story

And after this sad historical background let's talk about how they did it (although i wont go into much details), and lets start this off with two words:

ETHNIC CLEANSING .(started in 1948, still going on until today)

How’s that for a starter? The idea of ethnically cleansing the native population of Palestine from their homeland was the basis for the “Jewish state” Sadly. For a person to understand the roots of this conflict they should understand that the Israeli policy is motivated by the ideology of ethnic cleansing By creating an exclusive Jewish state in Palestine. Now when this ideology ceases to exist within the Israeli government ,Then a pre-condition for peace would have already been realized. Now This policy is considered by many to be the original Sin that led to the birth of the state after which all the other sins are consequent AND this is how it should be looked at: It’s the illegitimate way in which the state was created that has led to all the illegitimate acts AND if you deal with the acts singularly without looking at the original sin then you will fail to understand the reality of this conflict So the Zionist idea that there was “a land without people” that is in turn given to “a people without a land” is a fundamental untruth and as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts that those who believe this are “the people without a brain” , Palestine did have a people and those people had to be driven out of Palestine in order for the state to be born.

As for the Jews I believe that it was the right of the Jews to seek a safe haven and not be exterminated by those racist murderous Europeans and it was their right to seek self-determination BUT not at the expense of another people and not by policies of dis-possetion AND Israelis should understand that they will never become a normal nation unless they admit this and that the exiled Jews and Palestinians have to share the same fate.

So mass murders, massacres and threats or Genocides or holocausts caused a huge number of Palestinians to flee their homes and live in exile. Now today many Israeli historians do admit that ethnic cleansing did happen BUT they JUSTIFY IT thinking that this is the only way to move forwards “to retreat forward”.

[tsedek]

I haven't that much time to respond to so many different points you raise here in one go, TripolySunni. So, for starters I will respond to this:

Because if there was no palestine and no palestinians Then who are the 5 Million people Living as refugees in the surrounding countries With keys and land Tiltles to the lands that they were driven from in palestine.

When you own land in Lebanon or in any given country you still don't own the country. Obviously people owning land should stay on their land and their rights ensured. However if war is going on and there is fighting over and back between two sides - there is always the risk that one side might end up without anything (like that same risk existed for the jews owning land here).

(Now, if you are going to react to this, please give it to me in small portions so I can give it the deserved attention in the small amount of time I have available each time I log in, shukran )