Sheikh, Beyk,... Origins of these titles?

[Fragrance of Roses]

Originally Posted by mo781

Being a Sey'yed is not a feudal title, it's a religious title. We don't inherit it for social status, but for being the prophet's direct descendants. So I wouldn't even compare it with feudal titles. It's a great honour, and something to be deeply proud of; it's our religious and cultural heritage.

Wow!!! That is impressive!!!
That is the only way people could trace their blood, line exactly like the Cohens in the Jewish faith (I am not comparing the two here at all, I am just giving an example). The Cohens did a DNA test and found that they are the direct descendants of the Jewish Cohens (or Kahana--as known in Arabic), and the title or last name followed the blood line.
I bet that if your family does a DNA test, you can trace it back to the Prophet!!! That is very very impressive!!!! This is the first time I hear of this, so thanks Mo for educating us on that!!!

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by Secular Lebanon

The titles were not really "bought" or "sold', but if you look closely at some of them, many are not authentic titles, rather titles given to a rich guy by his admirers. The latest example is "Cheikh" Rafic Hariri, who was certainly no cheikh and he admitted so. But his people called him cheikh. Now that he is dead, the Hariris will certainly be cheikhs for generations to come

So when someone is Beyk or Cheikh, you cannot be sure of the "noble" origins.
However, Emirs are only hereditary I think that even someone important will not be called Emir if he does not come from a family of emirs.

Finally, the only title that does not come from wealth or "political importance" is the title of Effendi. Effendi is a title that was granted to the very few highly educated people under the ottoman rule (1500's to early 1900's).

When it comes to politics, I think all those titles should not be used by the media. They give an "aura" to people who do not deserve it and create unequality.

lol... its amusing how you throw words around that have no meaning at all.... what does "NOBLE" mean?
ino iza a person who comes from a family of emirs (or however one gets that title) gets that title and rapes and kills and pillages, then he is NOBLE?
Men are not determined by who their fathers are, BUT by what they learned from their fathers... and what they learned from life... and of course that is reflected in their actions...
being NOBLE is based on actions and creed not on some grand grand grand grand father of the person, who 500 years ago bought a title from the Turks, or deserved a title from the Turks, etc.....

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by cedarheart

Thanks mo781 for reminding us about the "sayyed" title. If i understood well what you said, it's a religious title and not related to any "aristocratic" hierarchy (Ottoman, or any other).
You also reminded us about the "basha" title, as you said it's an ottoman title. I'm not sure which famailies in lebanon held/hold this title. I can only recall the El-Saad from the Aley area. Habib Basha El Saad was the second lebanese president under the franch mandate.

actually cedar being a sayyid is not a religious title at all....!
ya3ni you can be a sayyid and a total good-for-nothing drunkard or whatever... (I'm a sayyid too by the way (Al Ameen) so don't think I'm insulting or anything... just trying to make a point)
all what sayyid means is that your grand grand grand grand father was prophet mohammad, thats all.
shee3a believe that when the prophet died he said atrok lakom hatha l kitab (kor2an) and 3otratee ahl baity (my family) for guidance.... i believe there are a couple of sunni sources that also support this saying...
and so the leaders of shiite communities should be picked out from these siyyed, thats why I dont believe there has ever been (I am way out of my league with this assertion by the way, but so far as my personal knowledge goes it is true) a non-sayyid (i.e. not a direct descendant of the prophet mohammad) marji3... a marji3 by the way is someone who's job is to find in the kor2an the answer to people's everyday questions that arise... along with other things...

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by nizaryahya

I have two comments here.
Hussain al Hussaini was also the elected president of Amal before Nabih Berri. Note that after Berri lost the second Amal elections but then the internal laws of Amal changed to include a wider base and then the results were nulled and then he won again.

The sayid title is not as innocent as it looks. Sayid's get half of the khoms money according to Shia Fiqh. The rest goes to the poor. They usually give it back to the poor with preference to the poor amongst them. It may not be bad as it descends directly from the Koran. And it was necessary to grant those people independence from the Islamic rulers so that he can not use the prophet descendents as propagandists. And they are around 25 % of the shia muslims (at least the ones who claim hey are sayids are 25 %). And it is a voluntary pay... but still.

1) whats so uninnocent about getting money from the community to give to the poor?
2) not any sayyid can get the khims and its khims 1/5, 20% not 25 ya mo.... you have to be a 3alim to get the khims... ya3ni me and mo are ruled out unfortunately... bas if you want to send me money ur welcome lol ill be sure to give it to the poor
hehe

[Dionysus]

Originally Posted by AbirWard

Wow!!! That is impressive!!!
That is the only way people could trace their blood, line exactly like the Cohens in the Jewish faith (I am not comparing the two here at all, I am just giving an example). The Cohens did a DNA test and found that they are the direct descendants of the Jewish Cohens (or Kahana--as known in Arabic), and the title or last name followed the blood line.
I bet that if your family does a DNA test, you can trace it back to the Prophet!!! That is very very impressive!!!! This is the first time I hear of this, so thanks Mo for educating us on that!!!

i suppose we would have to find some of prophet mohammad's blood to do that?

[CedarJet]

I haven't seen Afandi mentioned. My family has that, however no one has every used it, since it's not something we are proud of. I believe it dates to the ottoman reign.

[confirm password]

Regardless of where they came from and what significance (if any) they hold except to the direct descendants, such titles would be abolished. Why? Because they're still feudal titles and it doesn't make sense to be proud of them if you claim to belong to a current that promotes equality for all citizens.

Then again, consistency was never a Lebanese trait

[CPL]

Preserving the titles for "cultural" issues doesn't contradict with the equality of the citizens. But when it does (when the ppl look highly at their politicians with titles), maybe by then we should consider abolishing them.

However we are still with abolishing the hereditary political and feudal system (with or without titles), if this happens, then de facto the titles will fall out of frame.

Even though personnally I am with abolishing those titles. But I do respect the idea of keeping them only for historical and cultural matters.

[I_Am_LebanoN]

Those titles are a HUMILIATION
If i was Emir or shaykh or.... i would have been ashamed of it

it doesn't mean anything what's so ever

[confirm password]

Originally Posted by I_Am_LebanoN

Those titles are a HUMILIATION
If i was Emir or shaykh or.... i would have been ashamed of it

it doesn't mean anything what's so ever

Yet Saad Hariri, sorry, SHEIKH Saad Hariri dressed like a Saudi isn't shameful? I refer to your avatar elleh mabsout fee.