Sheikh, Beyk,... Origins of these titles?

[Fragrance of Roses]

Nice link Leb Girl!!!! I love the website!!!!!

[Souss]

Originally Posted by AbirWard

Ok Souss, you have to Pm Tazzi about your interest in the meeting!!! Check out the thread about the meeting from time to time, it won't hurt, believe me!!!!![/size][/b]

I regularly check the thread and I'm aware of the meeting, and it's on June 3rd, not July! Watch out for not missing it. A calendar and some glasses won't hurt either

PS I can't make it 'cause I'm out of the country

Now back to the topic ya chaykha!

[cedarheart]

Originally Posted by lebgirl

of course, if your ancestors were "given" the titles in the past because of thier actions, and did great things in the history of your country, i dont see why they shouldnt be proud of it..

Lebgirl, I don't know why you understood my statement as offensive, although i was clear in the note at the end of my post. I have nothing against anyone, and i'm proud of lebanese who did well to our country and not only if they were my ancestors.
My family has a title too, but we decided many years ago not to use it anymore while paying tribute to our brave ancestors, (personally i don't care about titles), the family agreed back then that these titles were outdated, had no place in modern era, My father's grandpa said back then: "all people are equal and no man should be raised to a higher status than any other man".

[Secular Lebanon]

The titles were not really "bought" or "sold', but if you look closely at some of them, many are not authentic titles, rather titles given to a rich guy by his admirers. The latest example is "Cheikh" Rafic Hariri, who was certainly no cheikh and he admitted so. But his people called him cheikh. Now that he is dead, the Hariris will certainly be cheikhs for generations to come

So when someone is Beyk or Cheikh, you cannot be sure of the "noble" origins.
However, Emirs are only hereditary I think that even someone important will not be called Emir if he does not come from a family of emirs.

Finally, the only title that does not come from wealth or "political importance" is the title of Effendi. Effendi is a title that was granted to the very few highly educated people under the ottoman rule (1500's to early 1900's).

When it comes to politics, I think all those titles should not be used by the media. They give an "aura" to people who do not deserve it and create unequality.

[lebgirl]

Originally Posted by cedarheart

Lebgirl, I don't know why you understood my statement as offensive, although i was clear in the note at the end of my post. I have nothing against anyone, and i'm proud of lebanese who did well to our country and not only if they were my ancestors.
My family has a title too, but we decided many years ago not to use it anymore while paying tribute to our brave ancestors, (personally i don't care about titles), the family agreed back then that these titles were outdated, had no place in modern era, My father's grandpa said back then: "all people are equal and no man should be raised to a higher status than any other man".

cedarheart,
i was not offended at all..sorry if i made it seem like i was but i was not.
anyways, I do not believe that if you are given a title that it makes you necessarely upper class...

[lebgirl]

Originally Posted by Secular Lebanon

The titles were not really "bought" or "sold', but if you look closely at some of them, many are not authentic titles, rather titles given to a rich guy by his admirers. The latest example is "Cheikh" Rafic Hariri, who was certainly no cheikh and he admitted so. But his people called him cheikh. Now that he is dead, the Hariris will certainly be cheikhs for generations to come

So when someone is Beyk or Cheikh, you cannot be sure of the "noble" origins.
However, Emirs are only hereditary I think that even someone important will not be called Emir if he does not come from a family of emirs. .

thats why you have to be familiar with history to be able to tell who are the real successors... a lot of people are giving themselves the name falsy and abusing it.

Finally, the only title that does not come from wealth or "political importance" is the title of Effendi. Effendi is a title that was granted to the very few highly educated people under the ottoman rule (1500's to early 1900's).

Originally Posted by Secular Lebanon

When it comes to politics, I think all those titles should not be used by the media. They give an "aura" to people who do not deserve it and create unequality.

although i am not that familiar with the title Effendi, I just want to say that not all Cheikh gets their title from either wealth nor political importance...plz do take this into consideration and I suggest even that you read some books concerning this..you will understand better.

[mo781]

You people are forgetting the Hussaini family, which I am a pround member of.

Hussaini family are Sey'yed. There are a number of Sey'yed families, but the Hussaini family are probably the largest.

Sey'yed are obviously direct descendents of the prophet Mohamad (peace be upon him).

In our particular family, my Grandfather's father, Say'yed Ali l'Husseini was a Basha, a title given to him by the Turks. The title is usually afforded to people with "nofooz" and social prestige at the time--social status, land ownership, etc... He was a man of his word, and his word was better than a stamp.

Then we have my Grandmother's father, Say'yed Ali Kazem l'Husseini, whom was a governor in the Mount Lebanon region. He also happens to have owned much of the land around the Zenith Sannine Project area... A massive lot that's being disputed now.

The you have our close family member Say'yed Say'yed Hussein l'Husseini, who needs no introductions...

Husseini family has been recently marginalized, in the political sense at least, but Say'yed Hussain was one of the main people behind the Taef accord.

For those who wonder why we call him Say'yed Hussain, well, he's a Say'yed, like myself.

Hay'de osset l'seyyed....

[cedarheart]

Thanks mo781 for reminding us about the "sayyed" title. If i understood well what you said, it's a religious title and not related to any "aristocratic" hierarchy (Ottoman, or any other).
You also reminded us about the "basha" title, as you said it's an ottoman title. I'm not sure which famailies in lebanon held/hold this title. I can only recall the El-Saad from the Aley area. Habib Basha El Saad was the second lebanese president under the franch mandate.

[nizaryahya]

Originally Posted by mo781

The you have our close family member Say'yed Say'yed Hussein l'Husseini, who needs no introductions...
Husseini family has been recently marginalized, in the political sense at least, but Say'yed Hussain was one of the main people behind the Taef accord.

I have two comments here.
Hussain al Hussaini was also the elected president of Amal before Nabih Berri. Note that after Berri lost the second Amal elections but then the internal laws of Amal changed to include a wider base and then the results were nulled and then he won again.

The sayid title is not as innocent as it looks. Sayid's get half of the khoms money according to Shia Fiqh. The rest goes to the poor. They usually give it back to the poor with preference to the poor amongst them. It may not be bad as it descends directly from the Koran. And it was necessary to grant those people independence from the Islamic rulers so that he can not use the prophet descendents as propagandists. And they are around 25 % of the shia muslims (at least the ones who claim hey are sayids are 25 %). And it is a voluntary pay... but still.

[mo781]

Originally Posted by nizaryahya

I have two comments here.
Hussain al Hussaini was also the elected president of Amal before Nabih Berri. Note that after Berri lost the second Amal elections but then the internal laws of Amal changed to include a wider base and then the results were nulled and then he won again.

The sayid title is not as innocent as it looks. Sayid's get half of the khoms money according to Shia Fiqh. The rest goes to the poor. They usually give it back to the poor with preference to the poor amongst them. It may not be bad as it descends directly from the Koran. And it was necessary to grant those people independence from the Islamic rulers so that he can not use the prophet descendents as propagandists. And they are around 25 % of the shia muslims (at least the ones who claim hey are sayids are 25 %). And it is a voluntary pay... but still.

hahaha....

Right, yes, of course, we recieve free money by virtue of our title! My friend, I would be living large if I ever saw a single cent from being a Say'yed. You think any one cares about giving us the khomse? They wouldn't even pay for my school supplies, so I have no clue what you are talking about. You live in a dream world if you think any one cares about these things.

Yes, people are so religious, but funny how they twist the rules when it comes to money.

25% is a gross over estimate... There are about 5 major family's who are Sey'yed, and they don't amount to anything but a fraction of the population. If 25% is word on the street, then there are a lot of liars out there--not strange for Lebanon. But being a say'yed is not common, nor to be taken lightly.

I'm too tired to go into AMAL and Sey'yed Hussain Husseini before becoming ra2iss majless nowwab.

Being a Sey'yed is not a feudal title, it's a religious title. We don't inherit it for social status, but for being the prophet's direct descendants. So I wouldn't even compare it with feudal titles. It's a great honour, and something to be deeply proud of; it's our religious and cultural heritage.